Gay Double Standard?

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[Matt B]

A study on the different sets of rules for lesbians and gay men in western society

We believe lesbians are generally viewed differently from gay men in our society. What do you think? What are your feelings towards homosexual men and women? Are they different? Be honest and share your thoughts.

Follow-ups

  Anonymous writes:

Among primates the dominant male will mount lower ranking males and have sexual intercourse with them. These lower males will not mate with the females, for it is the dominant male that mates with the females of the group.

I feel that homophobia is a natural instinct of the human male. If the human male submits to homo sex he forfeits his right to mate with females. The hostility that most men in our society feel toward homosexuality could be a survival instinct. He is protecting his dominance, so he can pass on his genes.

Homosexuality among women is not considered a threat. In ancient times in the harems it was permissible for women to have homosexual relationships. The Bible forbids homosexuality among men, but it doesn't say anything about homosexuality among women. It does make a suggestion that women have the right to sexual pleasure, and it is her husband's job to provide it. If a woman has a homosexual relationship this frees her husband of his responsibilities, and she can achieve sexual pleasure. Homosexuality among women is not a threat to society, because your wife or daughter is not getting pregnant from a male lover.


  Chris W. writes:

In corroboration with Anonymous' comments on the website, I thought I'd offer the following information:

1) The Greeks were a very open-minded sort. By their laws, if your father was a Greek citizen, you became a Greek citizen (assuming of course, you were male; women, as I recall, were practically non-existent legally). This meant that sexual relations between people only became important nine months later when a baby came along, and the father was a Greek citizen. Since homosexual relations carried approximately a 0% chance of creating a baby, no one really cared if you indulged in them. However, in the same vein, if you WERE a Greek citizen (or the son or daughter or wife of one), it was considered a duty to the state for you to have children. Exclusive homosexuality was looked down upon BECAUSE of its infertility. As a form of recreation, however, it was permitted for the very same reason.

2) Let's think for a minute. Most societies that I'm acquainted with are of the "live and let live" philosophy: you keep your stuff to yourself, I'll keep my stuff to myself, and the law will only step in when I forget that my rights end where yours start. It would be far too difficult to get people to conform to eccentric, intrusive rules. Homosexuality falls under that "protective" clause. In just about any society, a ban on homosexuality would probably be publicly acknowledged and privately disregarded.

In the Judeo-Christian tradition, however, anti-homosexual rules were accepted. I'd mark this down for the following reasons: For one, the Torah and the laws passed down by Yahweh (please forgive my indiscretion if you're Jewish) are not just part of the Jewish identity, they practically ARE the Jewish identity,or at least they WERE, around the time those laws were handed down. This meant that Jews were more likely to follow eccentric, intrusive rules, since doing so meant abandoning their identity (again, with all due respect if you're Jewish). The Christian faith spun off of Judaism, but all of the first generation, and possibly the second, of Christians were, in fact, devoted Jews. Reverence and obedience to the Torah, and later the Bible, was par for the course.

For two, we have that tale of Sodom and Gomorrah. Whether the Sodomites actually WERE engaged in Sodomy is not verifiable at this time, but realistically there had to have been at least ONE Sodomite who was buggered up the ass at some point. The point is, though, that the Jews needed something to identify themselves with, and hopefully something more tangible than a god who brought them out of Egypt or told David what to do. They probably latched onto homosexuality as something to define them,"They do it, we don't, and that's part of why (or how) we're Jewish."

And of course we're most of us ingrained in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I seriously wonder how many of us are moved to think homosexuality is wrong, and how far we are moved, simply because the Bible says it is.


  Marc writes:

First let me say that I am a gay man, actually more precisely I am a bisexual man. I do feel that lesbians are viewed differently than gay men for sure. Personally, I love lesbians and I think they're so cool, and without a doubt, if I were a female I would most definitely be a lesbian or at least bi like I am now. Lesbians are very beautiful, and I think they do have much more freedom than gay males in our society to express themselves sexually. Take a look at porn for example. Most guys surfing the web would prolly dig a couple of lesbians really getting it on, as opposed to women looking for two gay men. I suppose it's one of those ridiculous hypocritical social situations. So my question is why is looking at some porn of two men getting it on any different than looking at porn with two women? Let's be realistic- Homosexuality is homosexuality. 


  Monica B. writes:

There is most definately a double standard in the gay world. Men and homosexuality is considered disgusting while two women together is every straight man's fantasy. 


  Joanna writes:

It's funny that you ask this question: I was just watching "Chasing Amy" and the character Hooper x is talking about how difficult it is for him to be gay, let alone black. But here's the thing: He mentions how society views lesbians as cute, and "in." It's perfectly okay for women to be with other women, but for men it is unacceptable. There is an extreme double standard when it comes to male and female homosexuality. One of my close male friends is gay, and there are so many people who don't accept him, while the lesbians in my school are accepted.


  "Darwinian Guy" writes:

I believe male homosexuality is frowned upon because of the nature of the carnal acts involved. Intercourse is risky because of the all the venereal diseases, but when lesbians have sex there is no copulation involved at all (unless artificial aids are used) hence it is cleaner and safer even compared to heterosexual intercourse. With gays on the other hand, the only way intercourse is possible is by the copulation of the penis and anus. Sex is risky as it is: Anal sex is most unsafe. I believe this is one of the big reasons why female homosexuality is more accepted than male homosexuality.

Matt B's comments on this response:

This certainly may be a contributing factor to the homosexuality double standard we seem to be observing here, but there are a few comments I'd like to make. Gay men have oral sex as an available sexual option besides anal intercourse. Also between two men sex is considered dirty as you mentioned. Between a man and a woman there is is at least a risk of pregnancy, maybe STDs as well. But with two women, there is no risk of pregnancy and nothing "dirty" about the way lesbians make love. It IS very beautiful.


  Enigmatic writes:

In the last few decades, it's been true that lesbians have been viewed differently from gay men, although this differential has only been for a "subset" of lesbians. I believe lesbians have been grouped into 2 different categories (unfairly and ignorantly so... but unfortunately true). I believe the reason for this split is a result of popular pornography and typical male fantasy.

The first sub-set are the stereotyped "butch" or male-like lesbian, who is seen as being unattractive, often overweight and very masculine. I think this sub-set is treated in the same way as gay men; the "common person" (in their limited capacity) views both as being disgusting and considers any open display of affection or interaction between them and their partner as distasteful.

The second sub-set are the stereotyped "bisexual" or promiscuous lesbians (who are often deemed as being responsive to males or willing to perform for males). These are viewed like the "holy grail."

So in reality, the only "difference" between men and women when it comes to homosexuality has more to do with what we have been conditioned to believe is "acceptable" sexual behaviour. Popular pornography exploits this perception. The fact that the majority of lesbian porn only features beautiful slender women, and that most of the actresses are either straight or bi (and usually have little interest in women other than the fact it earns them money) would help to prove this.


  Mike writes:

Most straight men see lesbians as having similar "interests." We are both attracted to women. Straight men can also understand how a woman might become a lesbian after being hurt by men. We are fully aware of how some men treat women. Not to mention the fact that almost all men are turned-on by the thought of seeing two women together.

It is, however, hard for heterosexual men to imagine how a man might be attracted to another man. It is especially difficult to imagine how a man would prefer another man over women. Bi-sexuality is another issue. Most men see lesbians as bi-sexual. They don't think of them as exluding men altogether. And perhaps male bi-sexuality could be more readily accepted by society.

There has been a change, however, in our society regarding homosexuality. Fewer and fewer people are speaking out against it. Some newspapers are starting to print gay reunions near the wedding announcement page. Some have protested, but most straights think it's a good idea. Most heterosexuals (myself included) know at least one gay man or lesbian and accept them as friends. Remember, this society as a whole used to discriminate against people of different races, as well as, women of every color. Change is inevitable. Change is good.


Kalyandra responds:

Homosexuality has only recently become a negative thing. Centuries back when the Roman empire was still strong, men were encouraged to have homosexual relationships. The idea behind it was that while every man would have a wife to bear him children, only another man could understand him well enough to be his love match. A typical Roman man generally did not think of his relationship with his wife to be one of love, but rather one of convenience and responsibility. For a partner, however, he would turn to his male counterpart, his best friend who is also his lover, the only person who was seen to be the proper love match.

Even today, many cultures encourage homosexuality. Several tribes in Africa choose adult male lovers for their sons from a very young age so that when they reach adulthood they will fully understand sex and all that comes with it, especially how to please their wife in bed. They believe that sexual gratification equals healthy children, so parents want to start their sons off down the right path when they finally have a wife.

As for women, in the past and still today there seem to be no qualms about the subject. Not many people seem to mind lesbians at all, viewing them as positive, while turning negative against male partners. Is that fair? I really don't think so. I definitely believe that it is a double standard.


Matt B responds:

I think a lot of the problems with gender in our society, including homosexuality, stem from the fact that opposing groups try to analyze others from a standpoint of being opposites. This is a huge fallicy in the fabric of society. Other human beings are not opposites of one another, they are merely distinguished from one another by their conscious intellectual decisions. This is what makes us different from the rest of the animals. We have choice. Men and women alike are not opposites, either. They are different, powerless apart, and infinitely stronger in body and mind when they use their differences to their advantage and work together to achieve a common goal- happiness.

This study is being developed and more responses will be included in the full report.

[seagirl55]

My aunt is a lesbian, and she's accepted through my mom's side of the family, but not really my dad's (she's my dad's sister)... i suppose, for traditionalists, being gay isn't really good... no matter whether you're a woman or a man... and I'm bi.. and because homosexuality is so looked down upon in my father's side of the family, i can't tell anyone... so i suppose while lesbians tend to be "approved" in our society... they can also be "disapproved" as well...

[Pixagi]

There is definately a double standard in homosexuality in westarn civilizations. And here's where I think it comes from:

1. Look at who's been making the laws for the past few millenia. I'll give you a hint, it starts with an "M". Now, while I'm a feminist (so to speak), I'm not some bra burnin' Female Supremisist. I don't think men are the bane of my existance, nore do I harbour any type of feminine bitterness. It's just a fact: When men make the laws, they tailor it to their own tastes and ideals. Same is true for femals. So, when homosexuality comes into play, they'll condem what they don't want to see, but nearly encourage what they DO want to see. Note: When I say "law" I mean political, social and religious standards.

2. Women can't get pregnant from lesbian relationships. Nor is it as likely that they'll pick up any sexually transmitted diseases (most require and exchange of bodily fluids. This generally does NOT include saliva). And above all, if they are careful, the hyman won't break in female/female intercourse. At a time when the hyman was the all time saving grace for a woman, this is likely a major promoter of lesbian sex amongst women.

3. It doesn't threaten anyone's masculinity if they get dumped for a girl (Ok, I'm just joking on that one, though it is rather plausable.)

[Aquaesulis]

I'm not gay myself, but my opinion is that there's a lot of very ugly, pointless and destructive hatred in the world.  Unfortunately humans have always seemed to have felt the need to combine themselves into competing groups, and to justify the self held superiority of their own group via oppression and / or hatred of the others. 

As a result, various groups have become victims down the ages - non Romans, jews, homosexuals, Native Americans, Aboriginal tribes, the educated in Cambodia, whites in Zimbabwe, blacks in the US, Americans in the middle east, Catholics in England, Protestants within Catholic Europe, the English in Mel Gibson movies - the list is endless.

On the subject of homosexuality, my view is that NOBODY has the right to impose their view of heterosexual morality on someone who may not hold the same opinion.  If another adult wishes to express their love / desire / phyisical attraction to another consenting adult then I have no right to complain or try and stop them.  A lot of the anti homosexual hatred we suffer now in society is a result in my view of past moralistic meddling by the church.  Lets not forget that (in the UK at least) that it used to be a punishable crime not to attend church every week!!  The population was controlled by the church, who literally held the power of life and death over the public.  It still does in some African countries that uphold ideas about witchcraft!  Historically the Christian church was basically an instrument of control, given license by the monarchy in Britain and the Vatican in the rest of the world.  What better way to impose order on a population than to somehow pursuade them to fervently believe that they will go to hell for all eternity unless they do exactly as instructed.  The additional notion that you have to accept a hard life and suffering with no expectation of reward until after you die was a stroke of pure genius!   No disgruntled population there, and no pressure to raise their living standards by sharing out the wealth or giving them any status!  In modern society the role of the churches has been replaced mostly by politicians and civil laws - religion is mainly slightly more benign.  But the old beliefs and prejudices die hard.

Masturbation?  A sin.  (save your seed to inseminate another believer and spread the congregation) Sexual intercourse?  A sin unless you intend to have a child.  Flirting?  A sin.  Contaception?  A sin (the religion is less likely to spread and become dominant) Thinking about sex?  A sin.  (think about obeying the rules instead) Homosexuality?  A sin (the religion needs lots of children to spread itself and become dominant)  Knowing your place in society and being completely obedient?  Excellent!

So basically I think we need to forget all the old destructive and negative standards we are lumbered with and start again from a humanistic and egalitarian standpoint.  Live and let live!  Have some common sense!

On the subject of double standards, yes - men largely control the media, so lesbians are okay, they sell more stuff and create profit.  Homosexual men have a harder time through a lower acceptance level due to the reasons discussed above.  And bisexual men have the hardest time of all whereas bi women are highly desired.  You women have it easy!

In Britain there has historically been a major double standard to be benefit of gay women.  Homosexuality between men was outlawed but between women remained entirely legal.  The reason?  When presented with the bill, Queen Victoria refused to pass it because she did not believe women would be capable of such a thing - unlike those horrid disgusting men.... 

[joeybear]

Queen Victoria reckoned that sex meant insertion of a Penis into the other party's body. Since a woman can not do this there was nothing to outlaw.

[Claude Ivory]

I agree that society as a whole, especially men in our society, seems much more tolerant of gay females than gay males.  I have no such double standard.  I would turn down unwanted sexual advances in the same manner regardless of the gender of the advancer, not feeling threatened unless they (male or female) advanced in a threatening, i.e. forceful or unrelenting, manner.  Likewise I would consider my partner unfaithful if she had a woman on the side, just as if it were another man.  Homosexuality in general I have no problem with, as whatever consenting adults choose to do with each other is not my business.

[kramer2718]

I think that not only is there a gay double standard, there is an even stronger bisexual double standard.  I am a bisexual married man and my wife is not pleased.  She is turned off by male/male sex and I do without fulfilling that part of my sexuality.  She is straight, but I would very much encourage her to explore any lesbian tendencies she has.

[IndustrialBar]

Sure you married the right person?

[daw101]

 I Know many Homosexual friends. Many people Discriminate aginst them, and i believe its wrong. As a right, People should be allowed to love whoever they choose. When I hang around my friends they show the same love as normal people would. What they do behind closed doors in the bed is none of our buisness, and we should stay out of it Even if people think its nasty.

[andbuddhatoo]

i think that yes its true its more acceptable to be a lesbian than it is to be gay.  more hate crimes are carried out on gays than lesbians, but i think that this all just comes from what i think is societys doubt of lesbianism as a real sexuality. 

I think that society in general views lesbianism as more of a phase, or a result of a woman being too butchy to get a man, than being an actual sexual orientation.

for example i was in a chat room talking to my aunt and her friends( all lesbians) and there were a straght guy there looking for some lezbians to join them in  a threesome when i asked them about it they said that they were there not because some of the girls might be bi and enjoy having him with them, but because lesbians wouldn't mind having another girl there.

i think this is a thought that kind of floats around all the time, lesbianism isn't as permenant in a lot of peoples minds, and therefore a lot less threatening.